Larry King Interviews Suzanne Somers (and friends?)

On November 15, 2006, Larry King hosted a half hour program (transcript). Supposedly Suzanne Somers was going head to head with her critics. I watched the show and came away confused and upset. Why?

• Did Suzanne do a good job?
• Did she defend herself well?
• Did she make good points about using bioidentical hormone replacement?
• Did her critics make their points better?
• Were the critics clear about their argument with Suzanne's book?
• Did the critics make their point?
• Did the program answer the questions?

NO!

The Faceoff: During the first 15 minutes of the show, Ms. Somers and T.S. Wiley squared off against two women doctors. Dr. Diana Schwarzbein was in the studio, sitting next to Suzanne (and leaning about as far away as she could while still staying seated at the table). Dr. Erika Schwartz was in a remote location - New York. From the start it was clear that there was some serious friction on the set. Dr. Schwarzbein's body language and facial expressions told a tale. It seems that all four of those women "have a history." T.S. Wiley actually made that very comment during the craziness that ensued.

In the not too distant past Dr. Schwarzbein was Suzanne Somers' doctor - the one who first introduced Suzanne to bioidentical hormones. Something happened to that relationship and it shows.

Suzanne quotes Dr. Erika Schwartz in her book. Instead of being pleased with this, Dr. Schwartz (along with six other people) sent a letter to Suzanne criticizing the book.

Early in the foray Dr. Schwartz made a comment and Suzanne accused her of not even reading the book. Dr. Schwartz shot back that she had. Then Suzanne started to produce her evidence - printed pages that she produced from under the table. It got a little hotter at that point.

Charge! Counter-Charge! The ladies were only seconds away from scratching and hair pulling. Larry intervened - and I think the show went to commercial break. That gave them a few seconds to cool down a little - if they could.

Round 2: It started again - with all four women talking at once. Talking? I'd characterize it more like screeching. Whatever you call it - it was an embarrassment. There were 4 grown women - two of them medical doctors - acting like middle school girls fighting over some stupid middle school issue. Not one of those women displayed any amount of maturity.

Yes, it was good TV - action comedy with a nasty twist. It was probably entertaining to some people. I really thought I'd see some spitting and biting. The show did nothing to defend Ms. Somers' book and it did nothing to enlighten the public about bioidentical hormones.

The issue of hormone replacement is vitally important and the Larry King Live program may have done significant damage to the effort to bring the use of bioidentical hormones to the public who needs them for healthy living. The four arguing shrews demonstrated more about their own immaturity than they did about health or the issue of hormone replacement.

One point was made during the first 15 minutes - Suzanne and T.S. Wiley are friends and the two woman doctors are opposed to Wiley's protocol. I am not a fan of the Wiley protocol either, but I hope I have enough common sense to be able to state my position clearly without screaming - especially if I'm in front of millions of TV viewers.

Some Conclusions: I conclude that many people (women AND men) are in need of hormone help. Bioidentical hormones make the most sense. I think using the smallest amount is best. I think the Wiley protocol is harder to follow than necessary and the doses are higher than I think are needed. I also don't like the way Wiley is propagating her protocol (through the use of registered physicians and pharmacies - all who pay Ms. Wiley for the right to participate in her plans). She might still be right about the whole thing. "Might" is the key word.

Wiley is not a doctor and I don't care. If she has the facts then she deserves our attention. I don't care who tells me the truth. Obviously Drs. Schwartz and Schwarzbein do because the crux of their complaints (in addition to being mad about their "history" with Ms. Somers) seemed to center on Ms. Wiley's lack of medical credentials. Big deal.

Other Opinions Presented: The second half of the broadcast brought two male doctors into the spotlight. Ms. Somers made an asinine comment during this segment - suggesting that men couldn't possibly understand the problems that women experience. That's trash talking and irrelevant. Nobody can REALLY KNOW anything about another person. But, to make a blanket statement about men's inability to understand women was ludicrous. This was another in a long string of childish comments uttered on that show.

What about the guys? Dr. Wulf Utian  (he executive director of the North American Menopause Society) was one. He sounds like an intellectual and he has both an MD and a PhD. That means he's educated. It doesn't mean he knows anything. He strongly rejects bioidentical hormone use and actually derides it as some sort of dangerous practice. Dr. Utian is often supported by drug companies that make the synthetic hormone drugs - like the ones derived from horse urine. Dr. Utian published a paper about hormones and menopausal symptoms in 2001.

Just think about the following quote. When he writes "preparations" he is referring to "recent" plant synthesized hormones (probably hasn't heard of the Marker Process from WAY BACK in the 1930s) - a process that synthesized REAL bioidentical hormones from plant oils.

"To date, none of the preparations that have been synthesized contain all 10 essential estrogen components identified in conjugated equine estrogen, and specifically have lacked delta8,9 dehydroestrone sulfate. This compound has been shown to have unique properties that may contribute to the overall beneficial biologic effects of conjugated equine estrogen."

People NEED Horse Estrogen! Dr. Utian actually concluded that a human probably needs "...all 10 essential estrogen components identified in conjugated equine estrogen...". He wrote that all 10 are ESSENTIAL. My physiology texts describe estrone, estradiol, and estriol. I'm missing the equine ones.

How is it possible that a human would have an essential need for horse estrogens?

Dr. Utian actually thinks equine estrogen has a legitimate place in the treatment of human menopause symptoms. If a person starts from that premise how can he/she ever concede that bioidentical hormones (regardless of source) can be effective? Sadly, some people take this guy seriously. I don't.

Let's turn to the other doctor - yes, another MAN. He is  Dr. Larry Webster from Raleigh, North Carolina,. He seemed cool and rational and actually had his thoughts written out. It appeared that he planned his presentation - unlike the screaming shrews and Dr. Utian. This guy made some excellent points but didn't get much of a chance to speak. Larry King had a hard time quieting the other 5 enough so that this one calm voice could be heard.

What do I know about bioidentical hormones?

• They are exactly the same as we make in our own body.
• When used correctly they are safe and have no side effects.
• They are inexpensive and cannot be patented.

Suzanne Somers knows all of this and she did a wonderful job  presenting her case in her newest book, "Ageless: The Naked Truth About Bioidentical Hormones". I was very pleased at the amount of time she spent describing each of our hormones, how they work, what happens when they aren't working, and how we can go about returning ourselves to balance. That wasn't evident during her time on the air with Larry King. If you looked for it a viewer could tell that Suzanne favored bioidentical hormones, but it seemed to get buried in the fighting.

Interestingly, both Dr. Schwarzbein and Dr. Schwartz also had positive comments to make about bioidentical hormones. All three of them, and T.S. Wiley too, could have done a lot for women who suffer hormone imbalance if they had been able to put aside their petty rivalries long enough to discuss the real important issues. Instead, both doctors focused on the fact that Wiley is not a doctor and that her protocol hasn't been tested. It is odd that Somers devoted a little over 7 pages about the Wiley protocol and that got all of the attention. They all but ignored the other 385 pages.

Did I learn this from the Larry King Live broadcast on November 15, 2006?

NO!

TRANSCRIPT CNN LARRY KING LIVE
Encore Presentation: Suzanne Somers Debates Doctors Aired November 19, 2006 - 21:00   ET

BACK TO THE TOP

KING: Welcome back.

Suzanne Somers' new book "Ageless, the Naked Truth About Bio Identical Hormones," there you see its cover, has generated a whole lot of controversy since its release earlier this year.

The book promotes bio identical hormones. It claims they are better at treating aging in menopausal women than hormones from traditional drug companies. Critics have called some of the advice in the book dangerous.

Suzanne is here tonight to take on her critics and defend the book.

There will be others later, but with us now, joining Suzanne is Dr. Erika Schwartz, internist and women's health expert, author of "The Hormone Solution". She has some problems with Suzanne's book. She joins us from New York. T.S. Wily is here in L.A., researcher and author, has co-written "Sex, Lies and Menopause". She's the focus of the criticism directed at the book.

And also in L.A. is Dr. Diana Schwartzbein, who has studied hormone treatment for 16 years, is an advocate of bioidentical hormone treatment. However she, too, has problems with the book, and she's one of the doctors who wrote a letter to the publisher.

What did you say, Diana? What did you write about?

DR. DIANA SCHWARZBEIN, SIGNED LETTER: Well, Larry, what we wrote about was that we really applaud Suzanne for bringing awareness about bioidentical hormones. But our concern is about methods that haven't been researched. And when you take 16 different physicians, and -- actually 15 -- and then interview a lay person, T.S. Wiley, and make it sound as if those hormones and her protocol have been thoroughly researched, that's where my problem lies.

SUZANNE SOMERS, AUTHOR: Let me tell you my problem. My problem is that Diana signed the letter without having read the book.

SCHWARTZBEIN: That's not true.

KING: How do you know?

SOMERS: That is true. She told me in an e-mail. And she just told her in the green room. But...

KING: Did you read the book?

SOMERS: You said you read T.S. Wiley's chapter.

SCHWARTZBEIN: Well, that's what I'm here about. I'm upset about the chapter...

(CROSSTALK)

SOMERS: I spent two years writing an amazing book. An amazing book.

SCHWARTZBEIN: I would say that it's a great book.

SOMERS: You haven't read it. You haven't read it.

SCHWARTZBEIN: I don't need to read it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She doesn't need to read it. She's a doctor.

SOMERS: No, but really.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wait, wait.

SOMERS: Just let me say something. Diana's an incredible doctor. I have given her credit. She has written the forwards to many of my books. I have given her credit for being my original teacher, an incredible teacher. She taught me about the insulin connection, which is how I wrote my Somersize books. Amazing doctor...

KING: But...

SOMERS: She has a problem with T.S. Wiley.

SCHWARTZBEIN: That's not true.

SOMERS: The problem is what she's saying is that these are not studied. There's no long-term double blind studies. There's no long- term double blind studies on what she was doing with me all the years that you put me on bioidentical hormones.

(CROSSTALK)

KING: Hold on. Hold on.

We kept interrupting each other.

What, T.S. Wiley, is a bioidentical hormone?

What is that?

T.S. WILEY, AUTHOR, "SEX, LIES AND MENOPAUSE": It's a molecular structure that mimics the hormones in your body made out of plants, usually. Soybeans, yams.

KING: You favor its use?

WILEY: Oh, absolutely.

SOMERS: And so do I.

WILEY: Much better than synthetics.

SOMERS: She started me on it.

SCHWARTZBEIN: But you know what? Here's the problem. You're not listening to what I am objecting to.

KING: What are you objecting to?

SCHWARTZBEIN: I'm objecting to the fact that when you read the chapter on T.S. Wiley, it sounds as though she is a molecular biologist who has thoroughly researched her protocol.

KING: So you're faked out by this?

SCHWARTBEIN: Yes.

(CROSSTALK)BACK TO THE TOP

SOMERS: Well, it's interesting because the makeup lady just read my introduction and said she didn't think I was a doctor or a molecular biologist.

KING: Let me get in Dr. Schwartz's thoughts.

Where do you stand on all of this, the author of "The Hormone Solution"?

DR. ERIKA SCHWARTZ, AUTHOR, "THE HORMONE SOLUTION": Well, I stand on the issue of women's health. I think that -- you know, I commend Suzanne Somers for having raised awareness about bioidentical hormones.

But I think at this point, Suzanne Somers has gone over the line. I am here after 30 years of practicing medicine. I've just left my patients to come here to talk to you.

Women are confused. They're desperate. They need help. They don't need controversy and people fighting over it. They need answers.

KING: How did she go over the line, Erika?

SCHWARTZ: She has endorsed a person, Wiley, who doesn't have any credentials. People like Diana Schwartzbein and the physicians I represent have been working for hundreds of years together seeing patients. We know when somebody's sick. We know how to treat them.

You cannot endorse and do what Suzanne did without repercussions. You know, the point is that Suzanne is great about raising awareness. Suzanne should be raising money for research. Suzanne should have left the practice of medicine to doctors. Let us take care of the patients.

Bio-identical hormones have become a source of controversy and we don't need that. We need women to be safe and we need women to have access to them in an honest -- in a very controlled...

KING: Erika, hold on a second.

Suzanne is having trouble hearing you. So I'm going to take a break and we'll come back. And so we'll get her up to speed as to what you said.

Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Just so we understand, T.S. Wiley is a researcher and an author, right?

WILEY: Yes.

KING: And what Dr. Schwartz said, and you had trouble hearing a little, Suzanne, was that you're practicing medicine without a license.

SOMERS: But that's because she hasn't read the book, either. KING: How do you know?

SOMERS: Because she said that. Let me talk for a moment.

KING: But you don't have a license.

SOMERS: But I'm not...

SCHWARTZ: That's not true.

SOMERS: ... anybody ...

SCHWARTZ: I read every word of the book.

SOMERS: No, you didn't. No, you didn't.

SCHWARTZ: And you know what?

This should not be an argument about Suzanne Somers or Wiley. It's about women.

KING: Erika, hold it a second.

SCHWARTZ: It's about women's safety.

KING: Erika, hold it a second.

Erika, hold it a second.

SOMERS: This is what -- I interviewed her for my book and this is what it was like.

KING: How do you know she didn't read the book?

SOMERS: Because if you read my book, it is such an incredible book for women. I take every hormone, what it does, how it works, why you need it, what you feel like when you don't have it.

I interviewed 16 doctors, each one of them I found -- what is your area of specialty. I took the different ways that women take bioidentical hormones and laid it out.

KING: And what do you make of all these complaints against it?

SOMERS: I don't understand. It doesn't make any sense. I interviewed Erika Schwartz for my book.

KING: Do you think it's drug company induced?

SOMERS: I -- makes me wonder when I don't understand something. And I also -- what I don't understand about Erika Schwartz is what she has -- what she's really upset about is T.S. Wiley. And I have something here that I think that you need to see.

And that is, here she is writing a complaint about the fact that I am writing about rhythmic cycling, which is one of the ways that you can take it. It's my right as a writer.

And she has been prescribing T.S. Wiley's protocol up until as recently as December -- I mean, October 12th, 2006. This woman is a hypocrite..

SCHWARTZ: After your book came out.

SOMERS: Right.

This woman is a hypocrite. She's trying to discredit my book.

(CROSSTALK) BACK TO THE TOP

KING: Dr. Schwartz, do you prescribe her therapy?

SCHWARTZ: I prescribed one patient at the request of the patient.

SOMERS: That's not true, Erika.

(CROSSTALK)

KING: If we all talk at once, no one's going to understand.

T.S., how did you get interested in this?

WILEY: How did I get interested in this? I'm a woman and I was aging and I was unhappy about it.

I worked with Dr. Schwartzbein on a book ten years ago. We have a history. And I got very interested in endocrinology and I kept going. I wrote some books on my own. I published on my own.

SOMERS: The thing is...

KING: You're not saying, Dr. Schwartzbein, that she's a fraud, are you? All right, what are you saying?

SOMERS: I'm not a fraud.

(CROSSTALK)

KING: She's not a doctor?

SOMERS: Thank you, Diana.

SCHWARTZBEIN: She's not a doctor. What I'm saying is, if you read the chapter on T.S. Wiley, what you come away with is that her protocol has been thoroughly researched and it will help prevent cancer. And that is not true.

SOMERS: It's an interview.

SCHWARTZBEIN: I don't care if it's an interview. You are advocating...

SOMERS: You signed a letter discrediting my entire book...

SCHWARTZBEIN: No, I did not.

SOMERS: Yes, you did.

(CROSSTALK)

KING: Did you say in the book that you can cure cancer -- prevent...

(CROSSTALK)

KING: Hold it, Dr. Schwartz.

WILEY: The oncologist I've worked with six or seven years now -- actually seven or eight, maybe, we're old -- presented 55 cancer patients on the Wiley protocol and a large group of doctors called ACAM, the American College for the Advancement of Medicine, just ten, 15 days ago. And we looked at what's happening it cancer patients.

(CROSSTALK)

WILEY: Doesn't matter if it was poorly received. It was the truth. We don't care how you receive it. We care what's happening.

KING: All right. Dr. Schwartz, succinctly, Dr. Schwartz...

(CROSSTALK)BACK TO THE TOP

KING: ... succinctly, what's your beef?

SCHWARTZ: You know what, you know what the problem is? We are wasting precious time with millions of people watching arguing instead of addressing what's really needed, which is safety for women.

Women -- there are 30 million women in menopause today. By 2010, there will be 60 million. What are we offering them? We're offering them arguments.

Women need to take care of their diet, their exercise, their lifestyle. Hormones are a small piece of it. Some women do not need hormones. Bioidentical hormones are a great option that needs more research.

KING: And now what is wrong with that statement? It needs more research.

SOMERS: What is wrong with it is that in the aging process, our hormones decline. If we all figure out that we just put back the hormones we've lost in the aging process to the exact amount that we need, we won't need all the other drugs that we're being offered.

Right now women...

SCHWARTZ: Based on what information?

SOMERS: ... women are given synthetic hormones.

KING: And she's asking, how do you know that?

SCHWARTZ: Based on what information? What studies?

SOMERS: Oh, come on, Erika.

SCHWARTZ: What science? What studies do you have?

SOMERS: Erika...

SCHWARTZ: You are an actress. It's OK. Promote, raise money.

SOMERS: No,, no.

(CROSSTALK)

KING: All right, let's go to Diana.

, break this.

SCHWARTZBEIN: I would love to break this. What we're still trying to say is this: if you take good care of yourself, you eat well, you manage your stress..

SOMERS: Which I say in my book.

SCHWARTZBEIN: ... you manage your stress -- can I finish, please?

SOMERS: It's hard.

SCHWARTZBEIN: And you sleep, you know, you have good night's sleep and you watch your chemical intake and you balance out your exercise...

SOMERS: Everything I said in my book.

SCHWARTZBEIN: ... you need small amounts of hormone replacement therapy.

SOMERS: Not necessarily.

SCHWARTZBEIN: This does not fill the tank back up again.

SOMERS: Why?

SCHWARTZBEIN: You know all hormone systems are interconnected.

SOMERS: Of course.

SCHWARTZBEIN: And when you're just looking at the estrodial (ph) and progesterone system, you mess up the adrenal glands.

SOMERS: We're not in my book. My book covers adrenal, covers thyroid... (CROSSTALK)

SCHWARTZBEIN: I understand.

(CROSSTALK)

SCHWARTZBEIN: I wish you would let me finish my statement.

KING: All right, Suzanne, let her finish.

SOMERS: I know, I know. It's just that I spent two years writing this book.

(CROSSTALK)BACK TO THE TOP

KING: And she has the right to critique it.

SCHWARTZBEIN: Yes, thank you.

What's going on is that the Wiley protocol does not take into consideration every other hormone system in the body. And I will tell you that I have had many complaints from different patients who have used your protocol, and they are calling up now. And they are having problems with their adrenal glands that have been affected by the higher doses of progesterone.

SOMERS: Can I respond to that?

KING: Now let her respond.

SCHWARTZBEIN: And I'm a physician getting patient complaints, you know.

WILEY: And we hold meetings in Santa Barbara once a month for 50 to 80 people on the Wiley protocol, and it is remarkable how many of them are your ex-patients, Diana.

(CROSSTALK)

SOMERS: You know what, that is true.

It's just true.

(CROSSTALK)

SCHWARTZBEIN: You know, I'm not even going to go to that level.

WILEY: OK. But you have to.

SCHWARTZBEIN: I have been following my patients for 16 years...

SOMERS: Not the ones that come to us.

SCHWARTZBEIN: ... and we're looking at -- that's right because I'm not clinically practicing anymore.

KING: How are they applying these hormones?

SOMERS: Why aren't you clinically practicing anymore?

(CROSSTALK)

SOMERS: My point here is not about the Wiley protocol or about the static dose that she was doing. My point is I wrote an incredible book that lays out everything she just said.

(CROSSTALK)

SOMERS: Here's -- here's how you strengthen adrenals, cortisol, insulin, thyroid. Here's what you do about your estrogen, progesterone, DATE pragmenitol (ph).

KING: OK. Hold it. I got to...

SOMERS: It's the whole concert.

KING: I've got to grab a break. We'll come back with that panel and then in the remaining moments later in the program, Suzanne will discuss this with two others. One agrees and one disagrees.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)BACK TO THE TOP

KING: We're going to get some other viewpoints on this and then let them all go at it.

In Cleveland, Ohio, Dr. Wolfe Utian, the executive director of the North American Menopause Society. We should note Dr. Utian provides consultation to pharmaceutical companies on hormone treatment.

And in Raleigh, North Carolina, Dr. Larry Webster, who studied hormone treatment for ten years. His interview with Suzanne Somers forms Chapter 23 of her book.

All right, Dr. Utian your thoughts on the topic as we've so far discussed it.

DR. WOLFE UTIAN, NORTH AMERICA MENOPAUSE SOCIETY : Larry, I think the whole group as I heard it, are all off base. If they sound more like a cult. This whole bioidentical thing is really merchandising under the guides of medical practice. They're all marketing.

Ms. Somers is selling a book. She's 16 cutting experts, none of whom have any published research.

SOMERS: I do.

UTIAN: The physicians, if you go to their websites, are selling promises, silver bullets, against aging with barely a nanoshred of evidence for proving what they're claiming. The compounding pharmacies are making large margins on drugs.

And the only people who are suffering are women out there who are confused. Their health is being threatened by promises of drugs that really do carry risks. And their pocketbooks are being hurt.

So I think this is really harmful to women and I'm really concerned because women are who we are speaking about.

KING: Let me get the thoughts of Dr. Larry Webster and then back to the women as well. And then we'll round robin.

Doctor?

DR. LARRY WEBSTER, INTERVIEWED IN SOMERS' BOOK: Yes, thanks, Larry.

We have literally thousands of women coming in, following Suzanne Somers. There's so many women out there that are desperate, that are having menopausal symptoms. They go from doctor to doctor without answers and don't get any answers.

They come into our office in tears. And we have over a 90 percent success rate. We turn these people into functioning human beings again. Yes, bioidentical are effective and they are the answer.

KING: How would you respond to that, Dr. Schwartz?

SCHWARTZ: I agree that bioidentical hormones are the option and they are a solution. But what I would like to do is extend a hand to Dr. Utian to bring in the drug companies, to help us raise money for research, because what's he's saying is really not based on research. It's based on translating information found on research on synthetics on to bioidenticals which is totally erroneous.

You're absolutely...

SCHWARTZ: I extend a hand to Suzanne Somers and ask her to raise money for research so once and for all this debate which the only harming women comes to an end.

UTIAN: Larry, where the real confusion is taking place is that this word bioidentical is estrodial, it's estrone, it's estriol, it's progesterone. These drugs are available in commercial products that are approved by the FDA.

SCHWARTZ: Right.

UTIAN: I have no problem if a bioidentical product was also scrutinized by the FDA and if the compounding pharmacies would put in a patient package insert the same way as with all the drugs and warned about the risks these bioidenticals carry. They carry the risk of blood clots, of strokes, of heart attacks, of breast cancer.

KING: Hold on, doctor. Suzanne?

SOMERS: Dr. Utian is funded by Wyeth Pharmaceuticals.

UTIAN: I am not funded by Wyeth Pharmaceuticals. I'm not.

SOMERS: I have it in my purse here if you'd like me to bring out more pages. I Googled you today. Your information is all out there. You're funded by Pfizer by SmithKline.

UTIAN: Yes, and by the compounding pharmacies who also come to a meeting and we give them open opportunities.

KING: That doesn't make him wrong.

(CROSSTALK)BACK TO THE TOP

KING: One at a time.

SOMERS: It gives him an agenda. See the thing is, Erika, Diana and Susie and myself are really are all on the same side. It's just -- there's some crap about not wanting a protocol.

UTIAN: You're all selling something and I'm not selling anything.

SOMERS: I'm not selling anything.

UTIAN: Not at all.

SOMERS: Dr. Utian you know that you're heavily funded by Wyeth. It's right there in your information. And Wyeth is the biggest funder of NAMS, which was the article that "Newsweek" wrote. She had gone to the NAMS convention, this is where this doctor said the entire medical community is upset with Suzanne Somers.

I must say as I was walking out to speak to several hundred doctors of ACAM in Palm Springs. So Dr. Utian has an agenda and Dr. Schwartz and -- who we don't get along very well, Dr. Schwartz...

UTIAN: ... My agenda is women's health.

KING: One at a time.

SOMERS: Dr. Schwartzbein and I, who have been very good friends and Susie, who I think is a brilliant, brilliant savant in that sense. We are all doing something great for women. Dr. Utian is a man. He cannot relate to what we go through. But women out there all over America cannot sleep, cannot...

KING: Would you agree with that, Diana?

SCHWARTZBEIN: I agree that Dr. Utian is off when he's saying that there's no difference between the synthetic Premarin Provera versus the bioidenticals. Basic science research gives us the difference between them already. What are we trying to sell? Premarin has equinyl.

(CROSSTALK) KING: Hold on, we're getting too technical. Let me get a break.

SOMERS: He's talking about horse estrinol.

KING: By the way, if you hear some drug names or companies mentioned tonight, CNN is not promoting the use of any drug. We recommend you contact your doctor before any medication. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: I'm going the try to break this down in the simplest forms in our remaining moments. First, a quick note, we invited a representative from Wyeth Pharmaceuticals to take part in today's show. They declined, but Wyeth did provide a statement. Here's part of it.

"Today, women with concerns about hormone therapies have frequently become targets of unproven bioidentical hormone replacement, products that are often promoted as safer and/or more effective alternatives to FDA-approved products. In fact, there is no scientific evidence to support these claims, and no FDA-required safety information is consistently provided to these women. As a result, many women are confused about the risks associated with treating their menopause symptoms. Wyeth believes that women and health care providers need complete and accurate information about all medications."

WILEY: Larry, may I say something? We have a package insert in the Wiley Protocol that has contra-indications and warnings. We do that as a bioidentical. We're standardizing the Wiley Protocol.

KING: You should, right?

WILEY: Yes.

KING: Dr. Webster, why do you have such faith in this?

UTIAN: Larry, I can just say something in relation to that Wyeth statement? You should disregard the Wyeth products. The active ingredient that's in the bioidenticals is the identical stuff that's available in many of the commercial products from the pharmaceutical companies.

SOMERS: Horse estrogen.

UTIAN: We're talking about exactly the same stuff.

KING: OK. I'm trying to...

UTIAN: ... These are the same products. It's just that they're packaged differently and they're made differently. That's the only thing. The active ingredient is the same.

KING: The question was for Dr. Webster. Dr. Webster, why do you have such faith? WEBSTER: Why do I have such faith? Because I see woman after woman change their lives, having a productive life and again getting back into society, having a memory, focus that they never had before. They don't have hot flashes. They don't have vaginal dryness. All those different improvements I see day after day.

UTIAN: But that is a normal effect of estrogen therapy.

WEBSTER: No, sir, I see a lot of side effects from the synthetic hormones because we get a lot of people in that have not had good results.

SOMERS: The bioidenticals are also synthetic. They're made from...

WEBSTER: ... Yes, but how do you change the chemical structure?

KING: I've only got a minute and a half. Dr. Schwartzbein, break it down simply, what is your complaint with that chapter?

SCHWARTZBEIN: My complaint with that chapter is it has not been thoroughly researched, which is what everybody is saying. I would just like it to be made clear so that when women read Suzanne's remarkable book, touting the differences between bioidentical hormones and synthetics, I think that's great, they don't come away thinking that they can take bioidenticals without some risks.

That's all I'm asking. If you would just say that T.S. Wiley is not a scientist. She's a woman whose interest...

WILEY: Excuse me? I'm a published scientist. Have you published, Diana?

SCHWARTZBEIN: Yes, I have, actually.

WILEY: So have I.

SCHWARTZBEIN: OK, are you going to interrupt me?

KING: Let me give Dr. Schwartz one more shot here. Is there anything you'd like about Suzanne's book?

SCHWARTZ: I think that Suzanne does a great job of raising awareness about bioidenticals but I think the issue is going back to Wolf Utian. He doesn't even understand the difference. He's using data together with Wyeth on synethics and translating it to bioidenticals in research.

KING: Dr. Schwartz, the question was, do you like Suzanne's book?

SCHWARTZ: With the exception of Wiley's protocol, yes.

KING: You are the one most attacked here.

SOMERS: Out of 400 pages, there's seven and half pages that she's so upset about. Can I just say one thing?

KING: Quickly.

SOMERS: If we are right -- Dr. Schwartz, Dr. Schwartzbein, myself, T.S. Wiley -- if we are right, that by replacing the bioidentical hormones lost in the aging process, we will no longer need antidepressants, sleeping pills, speed, tranquilizers.

KING: If you're right.

SOMERS: If we're right. And so far, those of us on it feel great.

SCHWARTZ: But in the meantime, we're taking preparation.

KING: We're out of time. Thank you guys.

UTIAN: Not a shred of evidence, what a shame.

SOMERS: You do synthetic hormones.

KING: Thank you all very much for being with us. Thanks for joining us tonight. We'll stay on top of both the O.J. Simpson and Suzanne Somers controversies as they develop. Tomorrow night, Alec Baldwin. Now stay tuned for more news on CNN, your most trusted name in news.

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